In conversation with pianist Seong-Jin Cho (Part II)
Seong-Jin Cho releases a new album on May 8, 2020 (Photo credit: Christoph Köstlin / Deutsche Grammophon)
Interview: Seong-Jin Cho (Series Part II) | “Listening to Mahler’s symphonies broadened my horizons”
By Young-Jin Hur
Where Cherries Ripen
May 8, 2020
To read the full article, click here.
The present article is part of a series of interviews with Seong-Jin Cho. For the conversation preceding this article, see Part I.
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): In this new environment where you started to systematically train yourself more than ever, was there a composer you felt most attached to?
Seong-Jin Cho (SC): Gustav Mahler.
YH: (in surprise) Mahler?!
SC: Yes.
YH: I suppose you are referring to Mahler symphonies?
SC: Yes. I cannot recall when I initially encountered the name, Gustav Mahler. However, I remember the first time I seriously listened to Mahler’s music was when I picked up a recording of his 1st symphony at a CD shop, conducted by Bernstein. At first, I thought the symphony was incredibly complex. The second time I listened, however, I was astonished. I realized there was nothing quite like this symphony. That's when I started listening to all of Mahler's symphonies.
YH: All conducted by Bernstein?
SC: Yes.
YH: Since I enjoy collecting recordings, I am curious about which Mahler cycle by Bernstein you listened to. Did you select Bernstein's earlier Sony cycle or the later Deutsche Grammophon cycle?
SC: I went for the latter. There were also DVDs. In the case of the 2nd symphony, “Resurrection”, I bought the DVD. Listening to Mahler, all the piano sonatas I was playing seemed insignificant, comparatively.
(Both laugh)
SC: Naturally, piano music was always there in my life. When I was in elementary school, for example, I used to listen to Krystian Zimerman's recordings a lot. But as I entered Yewon School, this portable MP3 player called IRIVER had just come out in the market...
YH: (excitedly) Every kid had IRIVER! There were models in blue, red, and black! My parents bought me one around the time I graduated from elementary school.
(Both laugh)
SC: I had the red one (SC imitates using the tube-shaped MP3 player with both hands).
(Both laugh).
YH: I find it incredible that you bring up such a generational thing. I had completely forgotten about these devices.
SC: Yes, it was also the time when people used to wear their earphones in this particular way (SC imitates wearing an earphone around the neck).
(Both laugh)
SC: So I would buy CDs and transfer them onto my portable IRIVER player. I used to live in an area that took me about an hour to get to Yewon School. Incidentally, that’s the exact duration of Mahler’s 1st symphony. So I remember listening to this symphony in my commute every day. Sometimes, I would fall asleep in the middle, but the timing was still perfect. And when I could see there was a traffic jam, I’d start playing Mahler's 2nd symphony (Note: Mahler’s 2nd symphony lasts around 80 minutes and is therefore around 20 minutes longer than the 1st symphony’s duration.)
(Both laugh)
YH: That’s a fascinating story. My interests in classical music also started with Mahler at a CD shop. It must have been 2010. I entered one of my local CD shops in London, actually to explore progressive rock albums. My usual routine was to flick through discs and see what was on their covers. If I liked what I saw, I would buy that album. On this particular day, I came across a disc of Mahler’s 5th symphony by complete chance. Upon reading on the disc’s jacket that Mahler thought a symphony “must be like the world”, I knew I had to buy this album. That quote entirely captured my imaginations. I recall listening to this work, initially a bit confused by the complexity of it. But in my 4th or 5th try, I fell in love with the music. Subsequently, I became obsessed with Mahler that year. I think after the 5th came the 2nd, then the 9th... and the 6th — what a piece.
SC: Yes, the 6th... I think symphonies no. 7 and no. 8 are the most difficult ones.
YH: I find the 8th symphony particularly difficult. I do not seem to be able to understand it.
(Note: I suspect many find Mahler’s 8th symphony to be the odd one out among Mahler’s output. Iván Fischer, for instance, otherwise known for his distinctive Mahler conducting, excludes the 8th symphony from his repertoire.)
YH: Which Mahler symphony is currently your favorite?
SC: These days, I enjoy the 9th symphony. A few years ago, I used to like the 1st, 3rd, and the 5th symphonies.
YH: Do you think your awakening to Mahler influenced your piano playing in any way?
SC: Although the influences were not direct, listening to Mahler’s symphonies broadened my horizons. For instance, I started seeing piano concertos in a newer way. I realized that not everything was about the piano. I began to think about how much effort a composer would have spent on the orchestration as well as on the soloist. Not so much Chopin... but if you consider a Beethoven concerto, there are times when the woodwinds are leading while the soloist becomes secondary. This possibility, particularly the idea that there has to be harmony between the orchestra and the soloist, became evident to me. I had reason to believe that every single detail was considered by the composer; nothing was accidental.
YH: I can imagine this insight becomes also relevant when considering the two Brahms piano concertos. They are known for their intricate balance between the orchestra and the soloist.
SC: Yes, the Brahms concertos have chamber-music-like qualities. The interaction between the orchestra and the soloist is crucial.
II.
YH: I’d like to return to the topic of your artistic development. You’ve mentioned earlier about the 2009 Hamamatsu Competition that you won. Was this the first competition you won abroad, outside of South Korea?
SC: No. In 2008, I had received first prize at the Moscow International Chopin Competition for Young Pianists. That was also the first-ever international competition I entered.
YH: Was there anyone who encouraged you to compete internationally?
SC: Yes there was. It was Professor Park Sook-Ryeun, the teacher whom I've met at the Seoul Arts Center youth program (see Part I), who suggested the idea of me competing abroad. For some time, I had been taking private lessons from her. After all, I was no longer eligible for the Seoul Arts Center youth program because I was not considered a youth anymore. I was essentially kicked out of the program.
(Both lightly laugh)
SC: In any case, we started sensing that it was time to extend my efforts beyond domestic competitions. For this extra step upwards, it was agreed that I approach Professor Shin Soo-Jung, a renowned teacher. Things went smoothly and I started taking lessons from Professor Shin in 2007. After preparing for around a year, I entered the Moscow International Chopin Competition for Young Pianists in September 2008. At that time, YouTube was not as prevalent as it is now. So I was very curious about how non-Koreans play. There were rumors, for instance (SC grins), that Chinese pianists have fast hands (Note: SC used an informal, quasi-humourous Korean idiom in expressing virtuoso. Literally translated, SC said ‘Chinese pianists have fast-rotating hands.’). There were also rumors that Russian pianists practice a lot.
YH: Ah, I see.
(Both lightly laugh)
SC: I wanted to see if these rumors were true when I was in Moscow. Koreans had already made a mark in this Moscow competition. In 1996, brothers Dong-Hyek Lim and Dong-Min Lim had taken the first and second prizes, respectfully, in this competition. For this reason, this event was well regarded among Korean pianists. All things considered, I entered the competition without high expectations. Therefore, it was a big surprise when I eventually emerged as the winner. We were only allowed to play works by Chopin. The final piece I played in this competition was Chopin’s first piano concerto. In fact, this was the first time I played the entire concerto with an orchestra.
YH: So you had played bits of this concerto before?
SC: Yes. I had played a single movement of this concerto with an orchestra before. In terms of playing all three movements from start to end, it was my first time.
YH: Ah! I imagine it was a very beautiful occasion for you to play this work in this way.
SC: In my memory, I was very nervous.
YH: That, too!
SC: Nevertheless, I enjoyed my time in Moscow. So when I returned to Korea after this competition...
Ah, I should mention this. There are fateful ways people meet. Among the referees of this competition was a pianist called Nikolai Petrov. He was really enthusiastic about my playing that he suggested opportunities for me to play in Moscow. My meeting of Nikolai Petrov would prove to be an important encounter, which I will explain later. In 2009, when I was in my final year at Yewon School, Professor Shin suggested that I apply for the Hamamatsu Competition. The Hamamatsu Competition is one of the largest competitions in Asia. For me, this was also the first competition I applied to that did not have an age limit. For example, even a four-year-old could apply for this competition. This meant that most of the people I had to compete against were much older than me. I must have looked like an infant (Note: SC was 15 at the time.). If I were now asked to compete against someone 10 years younger than me, I imagine I would feel uncomfortable.
YH: Did other competitors know about you when you entered the Hamamatsu Competition? You must have had a reputation since you had won the Moscow competition.
SC: I don't think so. I am sure they just thought of me as an insignificant youngster. In any case, I did my best and won the competition. Because this was an international competition, I consequently became eligible to be exempted from the Korean military service (Note: Military service is compulsory for all Korean male, except for those who perform exceptionally in international sports or musical events.). Because of my achievement in Hamamatsu, I became somewhat known in the Korean musical world. This was in November 2009.
This was actually a memorable year for me. In January of that year, I also had the fortune to perform in front of Myung-Whun Chung. This happened during an award ceremony where I was given an award and where I performed for 10 minutes in front of all attendees. I had not known that Mr. Chung was among the audience.
YH: Is it possible that Mr. Chung was there to see you?
SC: No, not at all. He was there because he was close to one of the organizers of the ceremony. Mr. Chung, then music director of the Seoul Philharmonic Orchestra, approached me after my performance and asked me about my concerto repertoire. I told him that I can play Chopin and that I was preparing Beethoven's 5th piano concerto. On the spot, it was decided that I will perform Chopin’s first piano concerto with the Seoul Philharmonic Orchestra that coming May for a charity concert at Seoul’s Sejong Center. I recall these days vividly. On the 29th of May, I performed Beethoven’s 5th piano concerto in the city of Masan with the same orchestra.
YH: And that was the insignificant youngster that competitors of the Hamamatsu Competition were facing!
SC: Accordingly, 5 months prior to the Hamamatsu Competition, I had already performed with the Seoul Philharmonic Orchestra. It was either a few weeks before that competition or during it that I was once again linked with the Korean orchestra. I received news that a soloist who was scheduled to perform a Ravel concerto with the orchestra in December had cancelled and that Mr. Chung wanted me as the replacement. This meant that during the Hamamatsu Competition, I was actually working on that Ravel concerto — I only had a month to prepare. In many ways, this December appearance was my proper Seoul debut. The program was part of the Seoul Philharmonic Orchestra’s main season at its home, Seoul Arts Center.
After the Hamamatsu Competition, in 2010 I entered Seoul Arts High School (서울예술고등학교). That year, I must have played around 50 concerts. Many of the performances were in Japan. In a sense, one could say my career really took off in Japan. Due to my Hamamatsu Competition prize, I was able to tour with the NHK Symphony Orchestra and also have my own recitals in Tokyo.
YH: What was your repertoire in this particular year?
SC: I played Schumann’s Fantasiestücke and Beethoven’s Pathétique sonata.
YH: So this was for your recitals.
SC: Yes. With the NHK Symphony Orchestra, I played Chopin’s first piano concerto.
YH: Considering what’s to come, I can see that you had gained much experience in playing Chopin publicly.
III.
YH: During your collaborations with the Seoul Philharmonic Orchestra, did you receive private lessons from Mr. Myung-Whun Chung?
SC: I met him privately on two occasions. However, most of our artistic exchange took place during rehearsals.
YH: Generally speaking, how is it like to meet Mr. Chung for artistic advice? Are those meetings similar to how you described your private lessons with Alfred Brendel earlier (see Part I)?
SC: No, not exactly (SC pauses). I actually went to Mr. Chung for advice immediately preceding my 2011 International Tchaikovsky Competition entry. It was a truly memorable visit, where I was given a view of his unique artistic vision. To this day, I think Mr. Chung is one of the greatest musicians in the world. His interpretations have immense depths. He is a class of his own.
(Note: Mr. Myung-Whun Chung’s artistic distinctiveness has also been discussed in my conversation with violinist Maxim Vengerov.)
YH: Could you possibly share with me what Mr. Chung had told you that impressed you so much during this visit?
SC: When I visited him at his house, we conversed about many things. This may sound like a strange expression, but I could sense in him a mountainous quality. You already get a sense of this character in the music he creates — he thinks in big ways. This large-scaled approach is reflected in his everyday thoughts, too. After my visit, I was convinced that I must leave for Europe. Mr. Chung showed me that there is a big world outside of Asia.
YH: How is he like in person? I cannot imagine him to be extroverted or talkative.
SC: I would say he neither gives the impression of talking too little or talking too much.
YH: You mentioned earlier that when you entered the Moscow competition, you were aware of certain rumors about how Chinese and Russian pianists play. As a Korean, what are the stereotypes of Korean pianists? Put it in a slightly different way, how would have Chinese or Russian pianists looked at Korean pianists during this competition?
SC: To be honest, I think all Asian players carry similar stereotypes, regardless of their nationalities (SC laughs). The stereotypes are that Asian instrumentalists have perfect technique and control, for example. In my case, I work hard to break these stereotypes. As an example, I want to show that there are Asians like me who have a so-so technique (SC laughs).
YH: Do you make extra efforts to break these stereotypes?
SC: It's not that I consciously or forcefully try new things. Rather, I try to play in a way that fits me the most.
YH: I am reminded of this thing that you told me last year, which actually moved me a lot. You said that an artist’s individualistic voice is inevitably there, whether you want it or not, and that to try to effortfully escape from your own characteristics can result in something unnatural. From this, I can say that being yourself and focusing on yourself is the best way to be artistically unique. There is no other way. But wait a minute... did I just give piano-playing advice to a world-renowned pianist?
SC: Oh no, don't worry!
(Both laugh)
IV.
YH: Returning to the topic of national stereotypes, is there a certain Russian sound in piano playing? I know there is a so-called stereotypical Russian sound in orchestral playing.
SC: If I listen to great Soviet pianists such as Sviatoslav Richter and Emil Gilels through recordings, I feel there is an immense sense of soulfulness in their playing... there is a darkness that is fiery yet cold. If you listen to Mravinsky conducting the Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra, the same feelings are there.
YH: I agree with you. Mravinsky seems to create a sound that has impenetrable strength... almost metallic, one could say. I do like how you described this style as being soulful.
(Note: The idea of Russian soulfulness is something that has always intrigued me. This is why I often bring up the idea of the Russian soul when I talk with Russian musicians. You can see this in my interviews with the likes of Nikolai Lugansky Maxim Vengerov, and Denis Matsuev.)
SC: Of course, we no longer have the Soviet Union. However, even in modern Russia, I would like to think that traces of this Soviet sound can still be heard. But there are subtleties to consider. While I definitely heard this Soviet sound when I was in Moscow in 2008, I couldn’t notice it when I was in Moscow again in 2011 for the International Tchaikovsky Competition. I think so much changed over those three years.
YH: Do you think it was your listening ways that changed over these three years? Or do you think this change was a matter of playing style?
SC: I think the playing style had changed. In 2008, I could palpably sense the pride that young Russian musicians carried. They seemed proud of their performing traditions. Even the teachers seemed reluctant toward non-Russian mindsets, as they appeared determined to preserve their Russian ways of playing. However, when I was back in Russia in 2011 and conversed with some Russian musicians and teachers, I felt a high degree of open-mindedness. Whether this is a good thing or not, I am not too sure.
YH: What do you mean when you say you are not sure this is a good thing?
SC: One could say that the Russian piano tradition is no longer there as a result of globalization. If I am frank, I think traditions such as the French school or Russian school no longer exist in 2020. These distinctions are not as meaningful as they were in the past.
YH: When you flew over to France to study, would you say you were influenced by the French school?
SC: It is difficult to say. I can pick up a certain French sound when I listen to old recordings. But if I am asked if those characteristics were there when I was taught in Paris, I cannot give a straightforward answer. It is true that in France, there is an emphasis on theory and pedagogy. These elements were prominent in the curriculum while I was there. Being in this system, I learned how to analyze works. I found this very useful.
On the French pianism itself, many people tend to think of the music of Debussy... this dreamy quality that reminds one of French Impressionist paintings. One would expect these hallmarks to be present in the musical styles taught in French institutes, too. But in my experience, the French school of piano playing is very academic, perhaps somewhat “square.”
However, it would do no justice to say that this conservatism is what the French school is all about. The conclusion is what I said earlier — this is a difficult question to answer. Besides, probably by the time I arrived in France, these nationally-distinguishable characteristics were already obsolete.
YH: Did you have any specific expectations of how you'd be taught in France?
SC: I don’t think so. I simply wanted to expand my experiences. Paris is a city that has a wonderful music culture and Michel Béroff was someone I wanted to learn from. I wanted to experience Europe by living there. Paris is a beautiful city, too. The more I think of it, the more I see how beautiful Paris is.
V.
YH: What were your first impressions of Paris?
SC: I arrived in Paris in October 2011. I had heard some bad reputations about the city. For example, people had told me that Parisians are rude and that it is common to be pick-pocketed there. However, I really liked the city. I remember seeing the Eiffel Tower for the first time, thinking “Ah, this really is the Eiffel Tower.”
(Both lightly laugh)
YH: “Ah, it exists!”
(Both lightly laugh)
SC: “Ah, what I only saw in photographs is actually in front of me.” It was during sunset, and the scenery was beautiful.
YH: It is strange to imagine that this is a scenery that Debussy and Ravel probably would have known so well.
SC: Famously, the French novelist Maupassant did not like the Eiffel Tower. He supposedly wrote some of his works right underneath the tower. Being underneath the tower, the tower was no longer visible to him.
YH: How funny! I had no idea such a story existed. Did you go to Paris alone?
SC: No, I was there with my mother.
YH: Although your parents weren’t much into music themselves, they were incredibly supportive.
SC: Yes, they were.
YH: Was there someone apart from your mother who helped you settle down in Paris? Were there any particular musicians, for example?
SC: I cannot think of anyone in particular. While my mother was so supportive, I did not have any friends in Paris. I think I experienced for the first time in my life the feeling of loneliness. It was especially difficult in the winter — as you know, wintertime in Europe isn't particularly nice. At that time, the only thing that consoled me was music. Concert halls felt like my real home. I learned and felt so much in these concert halls.
YH: Did you go to concerts alone?
SC: Yes.
YH: Do you think your loneliness shaped your playing style or your repertoire in any way?
SC: I think the experience helped me understand Ravel’s Valses nobles et sentimental, a piece that I was playing at that time. This is not a straightforwardly sad piece. Actually, one can generally say this about the music of both Debussy and Ravel — there is a sense of solitude in their works. I started to strongly identify with this solitude. Whenever I felt melancholic, I would play pieces by these two composers and I would soon feel better afterwards.
YH: I can see where you are coming from. Debussy and Ravel wrote strikingly when it comes to the evocation of beauty in sadness. I imagine the language barrier did not help you regarding your loneliness.
SC: I don’t fully understand why I was like this back then... in the first two years of my life in Paris, I think I was depressed. This made me avoid people. Although it is true I never had the personality to quickly make friends anyway, I actively avoided meeting people in Paris.
The only French I could speak was limited to my studies. I think I did try to learn French on my own. But a language is best learnt when you converse in that language with friends — I simply did not allow myself this opportunity because I intentionally did not meet people. This continued until I was 19 or 20 years old. My life consisted of practicing the piano at home and at school and of attending concerts. In France, there are a lot of benefits given to students. If you buy a yearly student membership, you can visit places like Musée de l’Orangerie or Musée d’Orsay without limits. So I spent a lot of time in these places alone.
YH: I suppose we can talk all about this since those dark days have passed, but I feel that acquainting loneliness is not only a bad thing. Through these intense periods, I believe one can learn much about oneself.
SC: Soon, my mother noticed that something wasn't right with me. I think this made her look after me even more than before. Without my mother, I think I would have had real difficulties.
YH: I agree. This must have been a difficult time for your mother as well.
SC: Yes, she told me later that this was not an easy time for her, too. She saw how I was behaving... and depression can be contagious.
YH: Yes. The difficulties a fully grown adult must face when they move from one familiar culture to a completely foreign culture is already substantial. At least you had your classes and your concerts. I can certainly say that both you and your mother have incredibly strong personalities.
SC: I think so.
(Both laugh)
YH: Ultimately, it is this strength that makes you who you are. Therefore, as much as I feel sorry that you and your mother had to go through these hard times, I actually congratulate you for proving that you have this strength.
(Both laugh)
YH: Since we talked about your International Chopin Piano Competition experiences last time we met in London and because I am sure other interviewers would have asked you so much about this part of your life anyway, I won’t dwell much on the Chopin competition. However, I’d like to ask you about your personal relationship with Krystian Zimerman, which I understand began around this time. I suspect there are some memorable and personal stories.
SC: Yes.
[To be continued in Part III.]